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A Discussion Group Devoted To Astrology

Positions for May 29, 2000.

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This is a discussion group devoted to astrology and how it impacts our lives.

Index of the discussions we have had on the site:

Index Two of the discussions we have had on the site:

Questions? Email me

Last Modified: August 24, 2003

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Welcome Message to Members

From: Sfblynda
April 11, 2000 12:13pm
Subject: Welcome Message

Hiya all - welcome to the club *s*

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From: Phoenyx_us
April 11, 2000 2:36pm
Subject:Welcome Message

Welcome to the astrology chat club, started by my good friend Scully and myself, and others from the Cyggies group. We're all interested in talking about astrology, so we thought we'd create this group. If you're interested, please join in the discussion

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From: Kinky_Ultra
April 11, 2000 4:12pm
Subject: Welcome Message

What a great idea you two have had here *grin* You two being the "brains" behind do we begin the discussion then?

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From: Delia
April 11, 2000 4:12pm
Subject: Welcome Message

This is great! I feel like I'm in school. Can't wait to start learning *S* OK Rich, what were you saying about all them planets alligning soon...? I'm really interested in knowing a lil more about that.

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Jupiter and Saturn Cycle

From: Phoenyx_us
April 11, 2000 4:12pm
Subject:Jupiter and Saturn Cycle

All right folks. Let's start the show with a little discussion about Jupiter and Saturn and then about the planetary alignment. Saturn is associated with the formation of the ego, or more correctly, I believe, the persona, that is the personal image one projects to the outer world. It rules Capricorn and the 10th house, the field of social position and structure. It travels around the Sun in approximately 28 years, and thus is associated with what Carl Jung calls the process of individuation. He identified 3 cycles of individuation associated with a person's life, or 3 periods of 28 years which equal 84 years, an important number associated with fulfillment.

In the first 28 years, man develops as a physical human being. In the second 28 years man develops his social or psycho-mental being, an individual in its own right acting within a collective society of other beings.. In the third 28 years, man develops his spiritual or immortal being. Now mind you, this is the ideal process of individuation if a person actualizes his true being or personality; in reality, most human beings probably achieve only a part of the second stage of individuation, becoming as Rudhyar says merely the "fulfillment of their race or society's idea of life", that is "good members of the hive". Astrology is all about fulfilling the process of individuation through a conscious understanding of the cycles of energy which are represented symbolically by the planets, houses and signs of the zodiac. As surely as summer follows spring-time, then autumn and winter, so all cycles of living energy follow very predetermined paths of development. Understanding this process of unfoldment is the key to understanding astrology.

Enough of this heady philosophy. Let's talk about Jupiter. Jupiter is the "lucky planet" associated with good fortune, and one's destiny and sense of "right action". Jupiter travels around the sun in some 13 to 14 years, so it spends approximately one year or more in each of the houses of a birth-chart. Jupiter and Saturn work together to expand man's consciousness. Saturn, with its rings, forms the limits that define one as an individual, distinct from others. Jupiter acts to compensate for the limitedness of Saturn by expanding to fill the bounds of the ego, and at times to attempt to expand beyond its borders (more on that when we talk about the planets of the unconscious, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto).

Together, Jupiter and Saturn create a cycle of interaction that spans 20 years. Ever notice how every decade seems to have it's own flavor? We speak of the roaring 20's the depressed 30's the war torn 40's, etc. That is because Jupiter and Saturn generally rule the larger affairs of man, individuals acting within the frameworks of their social environments, through their personal beings. The conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn begins a new cycle; it is the birth of the "seed moment" which will be actualized over the next 20 years. As Jupiter moves ahead of Saturn, it expands a person's consciousness and social experience within the bounds imposed by Saturn. At the opposition of the cycle, about 10 years later, the results of Jupiter's expansion are experienced and Jupiter moves closer to the limits imposed by Saturn as it struggles to expand consciousness against the increasing closedness of Saturn. At the end of the cycle, in a 12th house experience, the results of the cycle are consummated for good or for bad, and the "seed" of a new cycle is created. This new cycle will inherit the results of the previous cycle (you might think of "karma"), but will also contain within it the seeds for the successful integration of experience and the foundation for a new cycle of growth and development.

The Natal Vertex and Relationships

Wed May 3, 2000 10:07am
Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

I have been studying about the natal vertex and relationships. Have you ever thought about why certain people come into your life and have a profound impact on it? In every case I have studied, there is a direct link between the vertex of one chart, and a planet of the other chart. Between my husband and me, there is a direct link between my vertex which is 3 Aquarius and my husband's Saturn is 4 Aquarius.

Saturn is the "teacher" of the zodiac; so in this relationship, which has been true to form, we really learn from each other.

My closest friends all have a planet in aquarius or leo which will either conjunct or oppose my natal vertex.

Have you had any experience in this area?


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From: Claire H
Wed May 10, 2000 2:57pm
Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

Hi Elliana -

Anyhow, I do understand the vertex and have added its placement to my charts for a long time now. The anti-vertex works like another Ascendant and the vertex like a descendant, right? This explains why it affects relationships so much? I recently came across something in my readings about delineating it as the 'portal of death' which the 7th house cusp is known as the portal of death also. They cited some data about celebrities deaths that confirmed this idea because of the transits to the vertex at the time of death. What do you think about this? I think it flies!

You said you are a Virgo? What degree is your Sun at in Virgo, if you are? My prenatal eclipse pt., which was a lunar eclipse, is at 24 degrees Capricorn (It is making a return this July) and has a Saros Pt of 1 degree Virgo. It is concerned with ideas and their enthusiastic expression. New ideas and their positive outcome. You have to know that I have so many like-minded people in my life who have been teachers in some manner of mutual interest with this degree Sun exact or very close.

You can find your prenatal eclipse information in Bernadette Brady's, Predictive Astrology. I use her book as a reference in order to research eclipse meanings. It has almost become my bible for predictive astrology. I'm sure you have already read it.

Glad to be back in touch and I look forward to more exchanges of thoughts and ideas.


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Wed May 10, 2000 4:23pm
Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

(See Elliana's Chart) I am a Virgo rising, 6 degrees, Taurus Sun 2, Moon 29 Scorpio.

You are correct about the Vertex and the anti-vertex. The Vertex does compare with the descendant. What I have learned is that the vertex appears in the Solar Return chart on or near the ascendant at the time of death. Also, transiting Pluto and Mars will be making an aspect at the same time.

Death is difficult to predict and I don't do it. I do study the charts of deceased people, however. There is an article I have to find for you about death and the alcochoden written by a South American astrologer.

I am not acquainted with the book you mentioned, but Iwill look for it at the bookstore. I have to tell you, I have about 100 books (literally) on astrology, prediction, horary - a very large library. It sounds very interesting though.

I am so glad to have you here on the forum. If you know of anyone else who would like to join, please tell them about it. I look forward to more discussions too! Talk to you later,


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From: Claire H
Wed May 10, 2000 8:19pm
Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

Oh, OK. That was a little confusing about the other forum but we're all set now. ~smile~ Whatever happened at the Club? I'm really curious about what the "nutsies" are up to out there! Was it really freaky?

The fact that you have your Ascendant at 6 degrees Virgo is so fascinatingly confirming of this saros point being so relevant to me. Yeah! I love it when astrology so blatantly works!

(Continued at Transits and Health Matters discussion)

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Wed May 10, 2000 8:52pm
Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

Absolutely! Pebbles have her join and we'll answer your questions. You can teach me about Tarot, maybe do a little reading and tell me what I'm in for this year?

The natal vertex is not a planet, but a point in the natal chart that is rarely discussed in astrology books, magazines, etc. It is an extremely important point in the chart that acts like the descendant (ruler of personal relationships).

The anti-vertex is opposite the vertex. If you give me your birth data - birthdate, place and EXACT time, I will tell you where the vertex is and what it could mean to you.

For example, my natal vertex is 3 Aquarius. I always wondered why my closest friends were Aquarians. As I learned more about astrology, I learned about the natal vertex and important relationships in your life.

My very best friend on the planet has her natal vertex conjunct my natal venus at 9 Gemini; my other friend has her natal vertex at zero degrees Leo in trine to my natal jupiter at 0 Aries; and so on.

It is a destiny area in the chart, much like the point between the natal Pluto and lunar node. Midpoints will be another subject, and very interesting one!

Keep the questions coming, and I hope your sister will join us! Love, Elliana

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From: Lori

7/11/2000 6:55 AM Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships


The Vertex is located on the right hand side of the horoscope in the western section of the wheel. This point refers to the intersection of the ecliptic and the prime vertical in the heavens. Sometimes the Vertex is also called the Third Angle of the chart.

The Vertex, like many other astrological characteristics discussed in Karmic Astrology, is about fate. It represents an important life instruction. The Vertex mostly falls between the Fifth and Eighth Houses. Its exact point varies depending on the individual's birth date, time and place.

Astrologically, the Vertex and the Anti-Vertex (the opposite point of the Vertex) indicate karmic events in the life of an individual regarding cause and effect. Be careful of what you wish for, as it just might come true when the Vertex and the Anti-Vertex come into play. Wishes and hopes can be fulfilled in a very perverse manner; you may get what you ask for, but not without suffering, sacrifice or potential tragedy. These are the prices of asking for too much at the wrong time. Personal relationships are especially highlighted.

Well, this is a little something I found on the Vertex, though it doesn't help too much! Just whetts my appetite for more!


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From: Lori

Tuesday, July 11, 2000 7/11/2000 6:55 AM Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

By Rowena Wall (c) 1997

Many times when I'm doing a reading, I will allude to the Vertex in a chart. Most often I get a response like, "the whozit?" Not surprising since the Vertex is probably one of the least publicized points in the Chart. However, it is one of the most important points and one that should always be examined in forecasting a chart.

What is this thing?

Let me begin by confusing you. If you were doing geometry (and let's hope you're not!), the Vertex would be the pivot point of an angle. That's nice and clear, isn't it?

In Astrology, the Vertex is also an angle. It is arrived at by ascertaining the point in a horoscope where the prime vertical intersects the ecliptic in the west. The Anti-vertex is the corresponding point in the east.

The Vertex most normally falls in houses 5 through 8. However, I have certainly seen it fall in the 9th and 4th , but much more rarely.


The Vertex was actually discovered or invented by L. Edward Johndro, an electrical engineer. Later he did research on very technical astrological mathematical formulae. His theories were so complex they were very difficult to read or understand. However, those who pursued them found them to be most accurate. He had a reputation has a highly technical astrological writer. He introduced the Vertex as an important part of the Chart. He postulated that there must be two Ascendant axes in the chart - one being magnetic (Ascendant/Descendant), and the other being electrical (Vertex/anti-vertex).

Later, Charles Jayne, who was a eminent astrologer, writer, teacher and lecturer, and who emphasized the importance of mathematics and astronomy in Astrology, took up the study of the Vertex. He wrote a number of articles about the Vertex and stressed its importance.

Its Meaning?

Jondhro speculated that the Vertex had to do with involuntary actions, lack of choice and fate. Jayne further postulated that this is the "most fated" part of the horoscope. Modern Astrologers who use this axis, often refer to it as the area where one sees "fateful encounters". This is what I have found to be the most accurate interpretation of the Vertex.

"Fateful Encounters?"

Now I just know your very next question is going to be "What are you talking about now?" Well, sit down and get your coffee and I'll explain a little better, now that all the hard stuff is out of the way!

"Fateful Encounters" clearly refers to those contacts you make in this lifetime which are very karmic in nature. It is very common to see the Vertex aspected by progression/direction or transit when a significant relationship begins (or ends), or when one has met someone who will subsequently be important in one's life.

What's more, it is not at all uncommon to see aspects from one person's chart to the other's chart which include the Vertex. This is pretty much of a sure sign that there is some serious karma in play. An example might be one person's Venus on the the other's Vertex or vice versa.

Other Implications Too!

Of course there are other implications from these contacts. It's not unusual to see the Vertex of a Mother's chart being strongly connected to both her born and unborn children. By unborn, I mean those that may have been aborted or miscarried. A little detective work will show you these touchstones easily.

Children have these touchstones with parents as well. My Mother's moon falls on my Vertex, for example.

On a quick daily transit, you can also find yourself involved in a situation where you say, "You know, I think I know you from somewhere!" And what's that? Deja Vu all over again!!! Inspection will probably show that a transiting planet has aspected your Vertex, and thus you've run into someone known in a previous lifetime.

Important Angle

Recently, Chris Turner and I had an ongoing debate about the importance of the Vertex. Chris is a marvelous Astrologer and Author in Australia, and we write lengthy letters about astrology and other things. She thinks it's just so much "hooey." She challenged me to prove my point. We were going to set up a scientific study of this thing. In fact, Chris got a start on the study when we got interested in other matters and never pursued the issue. But the point is that my experience as an astrologer has shown me that this is a very important angle and should be used.

In rectifying charts, I find the Vertex to be activated during important events in the life - death, marriage and birth, among other things. I also progress and direct the Vertex when I am doing forecast charts, and of course I plot the Vertex in natal charts as well. Some astrologers also use the Vertex in Horary charts, but that is not standard practice.

Karmic Charts

I do a lot of Karmic Charts for my clients, and of course you won't be surprised to learn that the Vertex is one part of the chart that is very significant in this kind of reading.


Since the Vertex is an angle, it is very important that the correct time of birth be used to figure it. Like the Ascendant and Midheaven, the Vertex will change degrees as you change the time of birth.


Every time I do a relationship Chart, one of the first things I look at is the Vertex. This so clearly tells us if this might be a relationship that is being brought forward from a past lifetime.

Many people don't realize that most of our serious relationships have indeed "taken up again". A Karmic relationship with Vertex involvement will give you that feeling that you simply are part of that person - that you are one. That you can't live without them. You often meet the person and "at once" know that there is some important connection there.

While there are other factors as well, I would have to tell you that the Vertex connection is very clearly a major indication of "Soul Mates".

Is It Really So Vexing?

Well, the truly vexing part of this whole Vertex business is that if you are involved in a situation or relationship where your Vertex is involved, you often feel like you must stay with it or do something to "complete it", no matter the consequences. You find it hard to run away from or ignore Vertex situations. This is another reason I call it the Vexing Vertex. Sometimes we just WANT to get away and not being able to can be frustrating.

How Fateful Can you Get?

In modern Astrology, we take the position that you are the Captain of your Ship and that you are in control. While you may have opportunities that come your way, no one can make you take advantage of them. Therefore, a professional astrologer will always advise you that you have freedom of choice in matters. And that you are the one who creates your own karma on this earth.

This is a very true statement and I continue to espouse that. But I will tell you that when that Vertex is involved, it is not something you easily wiggle out of - and running seldom is an option. You will feel that compulsion to "play with fire", and the heat be damned!

When I do charts for my clients, I always delineate the Vertex, and find it most interesting as to when it crops up. If you have had charts done by me before, you will probably recall that I have stressed the importance of certain events at times, and most likely that time will involve an aspect with the Vertex.

But if you are involved in something significant now, just ask me to check your Vertex when we update your chart and I'll be happy to specifically tell you that I've done so. We may just find out that you are into something something really Karmic and meaningful. If you are, we'll explore it further.

It often helps to know just what you're dealing with at the time, since it will guide you in your decisions and actions.

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From: Crabcake

Tuesday, July 11, 2000 7/11/2000 7:41 AM Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships


There is much to be learned about the natal vertex; I use it in synastry readings. I also use the nodal axis.

I have found in every chart that the natal vertex of one chart is on or very near the same degree as a planet in the partner's chart (or whatever the relationship may be). My natal vertex is 3 Aquarius; everyone of consequence to me has a planet or luminary either 3 Aquarius, Taurus, Leo, Scorpio or Gemini. I do not find it as often with sextile aspect; but I have with the trine.


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From: Crabcake

Tuesday, July 11, 2000 7/11/2000 9:55 AM Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

"The Vertex" Celeste Teal

"The vertex is another point in the horoscope that is a place of intersection rather than a tangible body. Opposite the Anti-Vertex, which is the eastern intersection of the ecliptic with the Prime Vertical, this is the western point of that intersection. Thev ertex holds similar meaning to the Descendant. Since the Anti-Vertex and Vertex form an axis, whenever one is forming a conjunction, the other is forming an opposition. The vertex seems to be the more important of the two."

"The vertex appears to be a point of fated meetings and karmic interactions, fairly active in ties between the charts of individuals who seem to have a relationship of a fated quality or who feel they may have known one another in a previous incarnation."

"To illustrate a case that exemplifies the meaning of the point, a couple met and immediately felt that they had known one another forever. Their relationship developed as if they had, and did not much surprise those who knew them by the speed in which it progressed. They have an unusual case in which each of their Suns are conjunct the Vertex of the other. Although plenty of aspects exist between the other planets in the charts, this is the only significant contact made by either of their Suns."

"This is quite a fascinating case because it reflects a relationship where the couple may be destined to experience major life events at the same time due to the common ground of Sun/Vertex. They were engaged within 2 weeks of meeting, at which time both Mars and Venus were transiting his Vertex and her Sun. When they were married 5 months later, the North Node was exactly conjunct her Vertex and his Sun."

"While the vertex seems to be most useful in terms of relationships, it appears to be a point of destiny or karma for the individual in more personal terms as well."

"In several instances, the solar or lunar return chart prior to death contains the Vertex of the individual on an important point. It appears frequently that the Vertex is rising in these returns."

Hope this is informative- Elliana

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Subject: The Natal Vertex and Relationships

Transits and Health Matters

From: Claire H
Wed May 10, 2000 8:19pm
Subject: Transits and Health Matters

(Continued from Natal Vertex discussion)

Another item of excitement - for me, not the person it happened to - was looking into a friend's chart to see if I could determine any transits that would indicate her falling and breaking her shoulder. Her Ascendant is 21 degrees Leo and back last August 11,'99 the North Node Solar Eclipse was at 18 degrees Leo and in a wide square to her Sun in Taurus at 27 degrees. This happened within 2 months of the eclipse. Being out of work and immobile has caused her to gain quite a bit of weight also.

I find it interesting that the Taurus stellium was exact her Midheaven at 13 degrees Taurus and factored in as her Lunar Return at 15 degrees Taurus which is conj. her Midheaven. Her natal Lunar phase is Balsamic so this transit also says to me that there will be an element of letting in the area of career. This will be a public event? Will she have a huge retirement party? (She's not old enough to retire but she's been with the company many yrs)

The Saturn/Jupiter conj. will conj her Sun at 27 degrees Taurus and Mars will hit her Mercury at 2 degrees Gemini which is conj her North Node exact or within 10' and finally Uranus at 20 degrees Gemini. I have a feeling that this is a major turning point in her life concerning her career which was precipitated by the Solar Eclipse back in August. Perhaps just a complete reorientation of her career goals?She does have a 1/10 Sun/Moon relationship in her Progressed chart which adds to the feeling of career issues being in focus.

I hope I didn't bore you but I don't have access to any other chart that has as many hits as this one does! I'll keep tabs on her even though she lives out of state. This should be a good learning process for predictive astrology. My husband has Taurus Sun also and Moon and Mars Capricorn. All the rest is in Aries. Yep - he's a piece of work. A sculpture to be exact! LOL You would like him, I'm sure!

I know! I know! Don't we all have extensive libraries but feel that there is just that one more book that we need?! LOL Death and alcochoden sounds fascinating. There are two people in my astrology group that were just asking where to find info on the subject of death. Frank has done quite a bit of research already and has quite a compilation of facts that are quite convincing. There, I did it again - copious blabber!

Talk to you soon,


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Wed May 10, 2000 8:44pm
Subject: Transits and Health Matters

Hi there. Don' ever worry about boring me, are you kidding? I'm glad to have found someone as interested in astrology as I am. Just let er rip!!

Your friend. Absolutely, I say the transit of Uranus (remember, sudden events - the disrupter) was transiting the Natal 6th house of health and work; then in orb to opposing her natal ascendant in Leo, and square her MC in Taurus! Now, old Uranus will be in square to her natal sun for quite some time. I assume her natal sun is posited in the 10th.

Moreover, remember the house rulers. Her 6th house is probably intercepted by Aquarius (ruler is Uranus) since the cusp of her 7th is 21 Aquarius.

At the present time, transiting Uranus is at 20 degrees. It keeps going retrograde but it does most of the damage at the first retrogradation (don't have my emphemeris handy).

Uranus is also in my 6th house of work and health. When it entered the 6th I decided to retire early after 25 years from the government; I also sprained my ankle and was off work for 45 days PRIOR to retirement; then I had female problems this past October. The transit of Uranus is the agitator, if you will. The old planet of surprises and upsets.

I would be curious to see where her natal Mars is. Usually, transiting Mars in square to natal Saturn, Uranus or Pluto will trigger an accident. I hope she is doing much better. She could very well decide to retire this year. Keep me informed!!! Thanks for sharing the chart - this is absolutely fantastic!


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From: Claire H
Thu May 11, 2000 5:05pm
Subject: Transits and Health Matters

Oh, thanks so much - you are so sweet to me! I feel you really do understand my excitement through your own and it's a great feeling!

My friend's birthdata is May 19, 1947 11:48 AM Hartford, CT. No sense in making this difficult for you since you are being so helpful in teaching me about predictive astrology! ~smile~ My birthdata is 00:05 AM April 1, 1946 Lowell,

VT You are 100% correct about my friend having transiting Uranus in the 6th house and now it is conjunct the descendant making a square aspect to her Sun. Do you think this could affect her husband's health as well? No, that would be an opposition effect, right? I forgot to tell you that she is still not working after having gone back for a short time because she fell in her back yard and broke her wrist in 3 places. I feel so bad for her but it really makes me question what is going on in the unconscious!? Is she manifesting her emotional hurts outwardly through the physical body?

She is married to an absent-minded, lovable but very dependent alcoholic. She began feeling that she no longer wanted to tolerate life with an alcoholic a couple of years ago, he did quit, but has since returned to drinking. She has made a conscious decision to stay with him, she loves him, and maintain a life style that is suitable to her needs with or without him participating. Even though the choice is conscious,it doesn't mean happy ever after, does it? I feel she has needed this person in her life for relationship while she set out to have all the power and control that she was seeking through career and social needs. Now that her career needs are not so important anymore, I feel she is being made to face a reorientation of her life goals. Would you agree? They never had children of their own but 2 by his first marriage. He's a Scorpio by the way and was my husband's most intimate childhood friend. They did everything together from the time they were small boys and they still have a very close bond. Interesting since my husband is a Taurus also! The alter ego effect for all of them, I guess! I'm an Aries in this pile up!LOL!

Wow, I'm sorry to hear how you've had a bad time of it also! Is everything set right side up again for you? I can so relate to your weight issues except that I lost 25 lbs. last year only to have put 12 of it back on. arrrgh!!! You and I are not only kindred in spirit but also in body! ~smile~ I'm a blue-eyed blonde. What are you? Just as a matter of interest! LOL! I have a penchant for sweets that is the bane of my existence! I was so happy to hear that the Pluto transit to my Asc. could bring about weight loss. It will probably be after I figure out, through Pluto's energy, what my "inner child" is doing to me! LOL! Can hardly wait for your next installment!



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Thu May 11, 2000 5:16pm
Subject: Transits and Health Matters

Hi there! I have printed out your message and I'm going to take a look at her chart.

Uranus is a harbinger for divorce. It wouldn't surprise me if she suddenly ended the marriage! But, I'll take a look. Just wanted to get back to you right away and let you know I received your message.

I am blonde with one blue eye and one green (no kidding)!!!! I also moderate a food group on egroups as well if you are ever interested.

I am preparing to take a long weekend trip with the girls from my list down to New Orleans. We are so excited about it. It will be a first trip for some of them, and I used to live down there for awhile so it will be fun for me too!! I'll get back to you on this issue with your friend and take a look at your chart as well. This is fantastic! We are going to have a blast.


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From: Claire H

Thu May 11, 2000 10:40pm Subject: Transits and Health Matters

Oh my! Divorce! It had crossed my mind but where she didn't do it 2 yrs. ago, I didn't dwell on it. As a matter of fact, that is why I asked if the transit might affect his health because you know Taurus really hates to throw in the towel! But you're right she may just suddenly end it! I believe she is that unhappy!

You are a blonde too! Oh my Gosh, WE MUST be twins!LOL! I have a cousin with one blue and one green eye so Ido believe you. ~smile~

I've always wanted to go to New Orleans - I love jazz - but I'll have to leave the cajun food alone if I ever get there. Hope you all have a great time! I'm jealous! Thanks for taking a look at her chart for me and I'm looking forward to its delineation.


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Subject: Transits and Health Matters

From: Rich W
Mon May 15, 2000 8:56am
Subject: Chart Interpretations - Ruud

I just got Ruud's chart from astrodienst, with his 5 Scorpio 41 ascendant, so I think it's right. Hopefully he doesn't mind if I put the link to his chart data here for everyone to see:

(See Ruud's Chart) I'm right away struck by the span of Saturn, Chiron, Sun, Mercury, Mars between 20 Pisces, 4th house (Saturn only) and the rest in Pisces/Aries in the fifth (watch out ladies *L*). All opposed by Uranus Pluto conjunct at 16,17 Virgo in the 10th.

This I find even more fascinating: Venus (10 Aquarius, 3rd) is biquintile to Uranus and Pluto, sextile to mars, and square to the ascendant. Neptune is trine to the sun and Saturn conjunction, and sextile to the Uranus-Pluto conjunction. And it opposes the north node at 27 cancer in the 7th.

I sure wish I could jump to the meanings of all these things like the rest of you *L*. Somebody give me a hand here?

One more thing - Jupiter (22 Gem, 8th house) is square to both the Saturn Sun in the 5th and the Uranus Pluto in the 10th. All it lacks for a Grand Square is something in Sagittarius to oppose it in from the second house. Maybe he should marry a Sagittarian for money *LOL*.

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Subject: Chart Interpretations

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Tarot Cards

From: Claire H
Wed May 10, 2000 8:27pm
Subject: Tarot Cards

Thanks for the cheerful greeting and I look forward to getting to know you better.

I think you should take your "killer" deck of Tarot cards out and use them.~smile~ What deck do you own? I love the Hanson Robert deck because it is so beautiful and easy to hold and shuffle.

I'm curious about your comment that you are not the astrologer you once were. How do you mean that? Has it just been awhile since you were involved?

We'll get you back into shape real quick, right Elliana?

Talk to you soon, Claire

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From: Pebbles
Wed May 10, 2000 10:14pm
Subject: Tarot Cards

I use the Tarot of the Cat People. I have tried many decks (Aquarian, Thoth, and Rider) but none of them worked with me. Then I got the Cat Deck, and a whole new world opened up for me! Maybe because I am convinced I was a cat in a former life? Anyway, my reading accuracy was right on.

I was into astrology about 10 years ago, but it seems I never got into it like my sister did. She doesn't read tarot, though, so I consider that my thing. I am seeing a new guy and I asked her to do his chart for me, but she hasn't had the time to do it. Frustrating.

So, let's get on with the whipping! (Did that sound bad?)


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From: Claire H
Thu May 11, 2000 11:09pm
Subject: Tarot Cards

Hi Pebbles -

Whew, some of these emails get lost in the shuffle. Sorry I didn't respond before this. I don't think that I have ever seen the Tarot of the Cat People. I'll have to research it and let you know what I think! I do love cats! Using the Hanson Roberts felt the same way to me when I first used it - the meanings just jump right out without any effort at all.

It's interesting that you and your sister have occult interests. I have 2 sisters and I am the only weird one! They listen attentively when I talk astrology or Tarot and they think it is fascinating but they would never put in that amount of study.

I can understand your sister not getting that chart done yet because I am so bad at keeping promises myself. Life happens - you know!? I didn't quite catch on to "Let's get on with the whipping".LOL! Was it because I said that Elliana and I would get you into shape again in regards to astrology? By the way what is this food e-group that you and Elliana met at? What do you do, discuss food? Claire

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Subject: Tarot Cards

Chiron in the Natal Chart

From: Leah
Mon May 29, 2000 11:57am
Subject: Chiron in the Natal Chart

Well you're quite right in suggesting Chiron in Libra may cause pain in relationships. Relationships are of prime importance to these people and usually these relationships are often a repetition of the relationship with the parent of the opposite sex.

However, many learning experiences come through recognising that others may mirror you . Sometimes you may react to people as though the were extensions of yourself and your emotional reaction to them may have more to do with yourself than them.

Another possibility is you may deny your own feelings and opinions in order to become a 'people pleaser' or you may stay in hurtful relationships in order to avoid conflict.

Positively, Chiron in Libra people make excellent healers in regards to relationships - such as counsellors or mediators as they have good knowledge on balance and fairness in relationships. I'm not sure which house your chiron is in (9th or 10th?) but it will reveal the nature of your chiron journey.

Another interesting thing is that chiron in libra people tend to be involved in more karmic situations than usual, either burning off karmic debts or creating new ones.

With chiron conjunct jupiter you may be driven to communicate your beliefs yet it can also indicate feeling radically different from others. This is only an overview, but if you have any specific questions on this, please ask me. Also if you could tell me your chiron house placement too?

Until next time, Bye for now, ~Leah~

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From: Claire H
Mon, 29 May 2000 12:24:31
Subject: Chiron in the Natal Chart

Leah, your reading about Chiron in Libra was quite accurate in regard to how it has affected my life.

The choice of partner that would continue the painful Father relationship in my life proves true. However, I felt that my husband regarded me as an extension of himself! LOL! and that is probably more true since I had to break free of the emotional bondage that I had permitted to exist in our relationship. Point in case, he was upset with my doing astrology because he felt it reflected on how others would perceive HIM. This is not how he verbalized it but it is the basis of his true feelings in trying to have me discontinue my interest.

You are correct, I do take things very personally but I have been able to work through much that garbage through the process of learning to detach. Sun opposition Neptune didn't help! *S*

The "mirroring" point that you brought up is so interesting because I tell people all the time that my daughter is my mirror. Isn't that fascinating that this particular placement allows you to see that?!

In regard to denying my feelings in order to be a "people pleaser" - right on! Hey, I'm a Dog in Chinese astrology so what more do I need to say? Woof, Woof!! Just kidding! LOL! I am here to serve! What I have learned is that there is choice here also. The perspective in which it is done is key!

I stayed in a hurtful relationship (Saturn square Venus - pain in love)because of the other point that you brought up - Karma! I truly felt that this relationship was Karmic and that we were here to do something together. I couldn't leave until I felt that I had earned the right to. Interestingly enough, I now feel I can leave but, after 27 yrs., it has worked itself out favorably. Most emphatically in the last couple of years. So, you confirmed what I have always felt about so much of it being Karmic.

I pray that this is what God intends for me that I am the healer of relationships through the use of Astrology. This would include being able to help clients form a good relationship to themselves also.

With Jupiter retrograde, I already felt that my beliefs were somewhat different than my religious, ethnic and cultural background but now Chiron significantly adds to that source of pain? It fits!! My birth data is posted through Astrodienst but I don't know if Rich has sent you the link for viewing the charts of the members here. Anyhow, for quick reference, the data is: April 1, 1946 0:05 AM Lowell, Vermont USA You will see just how heavily aspected Chiron is for me.

I appreciate, greatly, that you have taken the time to interpret what this placement means for me.

Also, like yourself, the Nodes hold a great deal of importance for me when I read a chart and so does Saturn. Without a handle on what the nodal axis is indicating in the chart, the rest of the delineation almost becomes moot! How do you feel about that perspective?

Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you again! Nice to have you and your knowledge on board!:)


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Lunation Types

From: Phoenyx
Tue May 30, 2000 11:02am
Subject: Lunation Types

I promised I would get around to this a while ago, so I guess now would be a good time *s*. This is from Dane Rudhyar's book "The Lunation Cycle", and it is currently in print on I was surprised (and pleased because he is my favorite author) to read in Liz Greene's book "The Luminaries", in her chapter on the Lunation cycle she simply refers to Rudhyar's book and this classification of types as one of the best written, and went on with her topic.

New Moon Type

All persons born exactly at new moon, or within about three and one-half days following the new moon - thus with the moon mess than 45 degrees ahead of the sun.

This type of person tends to be eminently subjective, impulsive and emotional in his responses to human relationship and social processes. This may produce a state of confusion, a tendency to project oneself upon others, and the world at large, to live life and love as if they were dreams, or screens upon which to cast one's image- and often one's shadow. People and situations are met, in most cases, without much regard to what they actually are in themselves; they become symbols.

Sigmund Freud, and Karl Marx (born under an eclipse) are typical examples; so, in another sense, were Woodrow Wilson and Queen Victoria who sougfht to impress their ideals and personal characters upon the world. The Queen became identified with an era and its mores in matters of human relationship. Other examples: The Persian prophet, the Bab, who in 1844 ushered in a new religious era and experienced martyrdom - Amos Bronson Alcott, the Transcendentalist, well known for subjective idealism and spiritual youthfulness - Clara Barton, founder of the American RedCross, a woman of intense vital energy and subjective vision, fired with oe basic "soalr" purpose - Ludwig Erhard who succeeded in reviving German industry and finance - Gamal Nasser, head of a reborn Egypt - President L.B. Johnson.

Crescent Type:

All persons born with the moon from 45 to 90 degrees ahead of the sun in the zodiac.

Here we see the new impulse for action, or quality of activity, theoretically released at the new moon, as it challenges the old in a more or less intense struggle. This leads usually to self-assertiveness, faith in oneself and an eagerness to overcome obstacles in carrying out an inwardly felt command or vital urge. As every type has its negative aspect, this crescent type may be characterized in some cases by a deep, subconscious sense of being overwhelmed by the momentum of the past and the power of "ghosts" or karma. This negative feeling comes as the result of a failure to repolarize one's capacity for personal or social relationship..

The unfortunate French King, louis XVI typifies the negative aspect. Among positive representatives of the type we can list Ralph Waldo Emerson, who sought to bring new spiritual and existential values to his New England culture - - Franz Liszt, who succeeded in changing the social status of musicians and in challenging traditional musical concepts, yet felt the need to return to the Church of his troubled adolescence - Andrew Carnegie, the steel magnate whose Foundation became a model for many similar projects - Louisa May Alcott, the author of "Little Women," etc. - and President John Kennedy.

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First Quarter Type

All persons born with the moon from 90 to 135 degrees ahead of the sun, i.e., from 7 to 10 1/2 days after new moon.

This represent in the lunation cycle a time of crisis in action, a time for managerial, forceful activity. The essential drive in the person is the building of frameworks (or scaffoldings) which may serve for the future objectivation of new social ideals and of a new sense of interpersonal relationship. A strong wil is usually presentin the positive instance of the type, and perhaps a feeling of self-exaltation when faced with crumbling old structures, and the (at times) ruthless attempt at consolidating the new ideal.

Joseph Stalin and Oliver Cromwell, also Howard Scott of "technocratic" fame are positive types; the French poet, Budelaire, is a negative instance, yet a remarkable "manager" of words. The Russian composer Shostakovich and President Charles De Gaulle tenaciously intent upon bujilding a New France belong to this type, and so does perhaps less characteristically, Queen Elizabeth of England, though her country may see a new attempt at rebuilding itself within the framework of a future Europe.

Gibbous Moon Type

All persons born with the moon 135 to 180 degrees ahead of the sun, thus a few days before full moon.

These persons tend to pay much attention to the development of their capacity for personal growth. They desire to contribute value and meaning to their society, their culture, or in general to "life." They ask repeatedly "Why?"; they work toward a clarification of personal or social-cultural issues, with some kind of to them, important goal in view. They generally have keen minds and a capacity to associate ideas and concepts, seeking thereby to make possible some kind of revelation or illumination. They may devote themselves to a great personality or cause, and/or want others to work for them with the same devotion.

Among men of that type one finds the unorthodox and brilliant German philosopher, Count Hermann Keyserling, the inspired mystic Jacob Boehme, Lord Byron, and composer Gershwin who gave a new distinction to popular music. Among scientists Newton and Pasteur can be mentioned. The great international banker J.P. Morgan, and presumably Napoleon I, President Franklin D. roosevelt, and Khrushchev belong also to this type.

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Full Moon Type

All persons born at full moon time and during the three and a half days which follow. The moon is therefore from 180 to 135 degrees behind the sun in the zodiac, and, we might say, racing to meet the sun. This is the first of the types belonging to the waning hemicycle of the soli-lunar cycle; and it carries out the symbolical meaning of the full moon, apex of the cycle.

Objectivity and clear consciousness as the results of interpersonal and social-cultural relationships are, theoretically, the basic factors in character. The original impulse of the lunation cycle (its fundamental ever-sounding "tone") has now become a formed concept, a more or less clear image. What was mainly felt in the past is now seen. This may mean a revelation or illumination, and normally, separation or divorce - perhaps even a divorce from reality, or inner division ("man against himself"). Relationship means everything to the person of the full moon type, or else he repudiates all relationships except perhaps those with an ideal or "absolute" character.

Mary Baker Eddy, prophet of Christian Science is an excellent example of what has just been said. In the nearly opposite sense we have the "Apollinian" thinker, Goethe, and Rudolf Steiner, the occultist-seer, also a fervent admirer of Goethe. Joan of Arc is another "visionary" example of the type, prophet of a united France and of modern nationalism. The Hindu spiritual "wayfarer," Krishnamurti, presumably belongs to this category of personality; but so does the Spanish dictator Franco, and the astrologer Evangeline Adams.

Disseminating Type:

All persons born with the waning moon from 135 to 90 degrees behind the sun in the zodiac. This is also a "gibbous" moon astronomically speaking, but pointing to a direction opposite to that of the gibbous moon belonging to the waxing hemicycle.

I use the term "disseminating" because, in the positive sense, such a person tends to want to demonstrate to others what he or she has learned or experienced. Thus an individual of that type often acts as a disseminator of ideas - as a popularizer of what has impressed him most forcibly in his studies or his experiences, in his tradition. He may become a real crusader; but the negative type can easily be lost in a Cause and develop fanaticism or be swayed by mass emotions.

Among statesmen, this disseminating type is represented by Jefferson, Disraeli, Teddy Roosevelt, Bismark - and Hitler. Among thinkers and artists we find in this category Carl Jung, and before him, Dante and Wagner.

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Last Quarter Type

All persons born with the waning moon from 90 to 45 degrees behind the sun.

While the first quarter type represents basically a state of crisis in action, this last quarter type is essentially characterized by a tendency to experience crisis in consciousness; at least what seems mainly important to these persons is the embodiment of their ideological beliefs in definite systems of thought and/or concrete institutions. In personal as well as social relationships they tend to force issues on the basis of some more or less important principle which they feel they must uphold, perhaps at all costs. They may lack flexibility, as they often consider themselves pioneers whose work only posterity will appreciate. They are geared to a future of which however they only see the structural outline or prenatal glow. In some cases they are able to display an irony or sense of humor which they put at the service of their Cause - or else they are unable to take criticism.

To this type belong reformers like Luther and Gandhi, statesmen such as Washington, Lenin, Trotsky, Mussolini. The apostle of the "Single Tax" movement, henry George, the humanitarian poet Victor Hug, the scientist Einstein, and the humorist George Bernard Shaw can be added as significant examples of the type.

Balsamic Moon Type

All persons born with the moon less than 45 degrees behind the sun, thus about 3 1/2 days before new moon. This is symbolized by the inverted lunar crescent seen before sunrise - thus announcing as it were, the new day.

The approximately three days of this "balsamic" soli-lunar relationship represents one tenth of the whole lunation cycle. In the old Hindu doctrine of cycles, the last tenth part of a cycle (and, but not quite as significantly so, the first tenth of the next) constitute a transition state (sandhya) - and we might say also the seed state. In these last three days of the lunation cycle of thirty days, the cycle, as it were, comes to seed; and this seed is to become the foundation of the future plant, provided conditions for germination are adequate.

This type of personality is, in its highest manifestations, prophetic and completely turned toward the future, even though it feels itself the end-product of the past - yet a past which outwardly or consciously it has left behind. At times the individual feels himself possessed by a social "destiny," or led by a superior power. He is more or less aware of being a kind of shrine (or "field") within which something greater than his personal selfhood is taking place; thus he may readily accecpt sacrifice or martyrdom for the sake of the future, be it the future of a small group or of humanity as a whole. He tends to sense a character of finality in all important relationships he experiences; that is, he sees them both as ends of some process and as means to reach some transcendent goal.

This may lead to fanaticism - as in the case of the French revolutionist, Robespierr, who initiated the cult of the goddess, Reason - or to great political vision, as in Thomas Paine, surnamed rightly the "Father of Democracy," and in Lincoln, the Emancipator. The philosopher Kant, Havelock Ellis, student of the end-results and perversions of the sexual drives, Cecil Rhodes, who had a vision of an African empire, President McKinley under whose Administration the United States began to operate in the field of international politics as a world-power with immense potentialities for leadership - and who was killed in office - and Pope Paul VI, born just before new moon and who revolutionized a good many things in his Church; these men belong to the balsamic type.

In applying the above characterizations of the eight lunation types one must evidently consider first of all the limitations imposed upon an individual by his social environment, culture, etc. It matters little whether we deal with a statesman who dies a martyr to the political Cause he has espouse, or with a teacher of a small rural school (perhaps in an undeveloped region) whose life becomes utterly consecrated to raising the level of education of the village's children. What counts is the quality of the relationships entered upon by the person being considered - the manner in which his or her life of personal, social, cultural relationship is polarized, and thus the nature of the contribution the individual makes to his community or nation.

This eight-fold classification of lunation types does not, however, fill all the requirements of a thorough analysis of personality, and it should be supplemented by another kind of astrological approach to the lunation cycle. This approach leads us to the study of what is called the "Part of Fortune,: and in general to a consideration of the real meaning of all so-called Arabian parts. (Which leads into the chapter on the Part of Fortune as an Index of evolving Soli-Lunar Relationship.)

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Lunation Cycle

From: Phoenyx
May 9, 2000 8:27am
Subject: Lunation Cycle

Here are the names and brief definitions of the lunation types. This is from the Astrodienst web site, and their dictionary:
From Astrodient's Dictionary

The divisions of the lunar cycle -- usually four or eight. The names of the phases reflect the shapes of the Moon as viewed from the Earth.